[Mikitivity]

The US House of Representatives passed a measure to change the US Constitution to make burning the US flag illegal.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nati...123_flag23.html

Quote: Thursday, June 23, 2005 - Page updated at 12:00 AM

House approves flag-burning ban; Senate may not
By LAURIE KELLMAN

The Associated Press
TOM REESE / THE SEATTLE TIMES

WASHINGTON ? A constitutional amendment to outlaw physical desecration of the American flag cleared the House yesterday but faced an uphill battle in the Senate, where an informal survey suggested it is one vote short of passage.

The 286-130 outcome was never in doubt in the House, which had passed the measure or one like it five times in recent years. The amendment's supporters expressed optimism that a Republican gain of four seats in November's election could produce the two-thirds approval needed in the Senate after four failed attempts since 1989.

But an informal Associated Press survey yesterday found 35 senators on record as opposing the amendment, one more than the number needed to defeat it if all 100 senators vote, barring a change in position.

The proposed one-line amendment to the Constitution reads, "The Congress shall have power to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United States."

...[/quote]

I do not care if you are an American or not, I'm more interested in just feeling out people's opinions. Please feel free to discuss and vote!

[Keeslandia]

I'm a Yank and I say, "No, no, no, no, no, a thousand-times NO!"

While I've never had the urge to go out and ignite a flag, someone who does feel that things are so badly screwed up has the fundemental right to express that in a non-violent manner. If that includes burning a flag of the USA, state of Illinois, City of Chicago, whatever. . .then so be it. Others may not like it, but at least I believe they should respect the right to do so.

Ultimately, all this flag veneration troubles me. I understand it is a symbol of the nation. . .but that's all it is a symbol. . .a piece of cloth that serves to remind those who see it what the nation stands for. Ostensiablly, that's things like freedom of speech, religion, etc. When others maintain that it is disrespectful to burn a flag because "they fought and died for that flag," I am truly troubled by that statement. No one should ever be asked to fight and die for a flag. For their nation, their family, those they love, their community, the shared values of their nation and society - those are things worth putting your life on the line for. . .not an inanimant piece of cloth. Unless those supporters of an amendment are going to maintain that the flag takes on the Christian doctrine of Transubstantiation (which I'm sure some will), then they're asking people to die for a symbol.

It seems to me as though they're practicing idolotry by putting the flag up as an idol to be worshiped. I know I've not stated this artfully, but more than making me mad, this whole issue deeply, deeply troubles me.

[Mikitivity]

KeeslandiaJun 23 2005, 02:08 PM I know I've not stated this artfully, but more than making me mad, this whole issue deeply, deeply troubles me. [/quote]
Actually you summed up my feelings as well.

Personally, someday I'll inherit one of my grandfathers' flags. The family of a veteran is given a flag when he / she dies, and my brother and I both feel that these flags should be respected.

However, just because they are important to us, does not mean that the freedom for which they are a true symbol should be infringed by making it illegal to destroy the symbol. Ironically I think by *not* making it illegal to burn, you discourage it more and enhance the freedom.

[DataGenesis]

multiplied by 3 on that one.

[Yuunli]

Here's what I wrote in another forum this morning:

Free speech? I don't see why destroying something could be called "free speech". There are other ways to express dislike.

Burning something is an act of damage to property. So you're not allowed to burn something that doesn't belong to you. And even then there can be restrictions, because burning certain materials causes pollution.

What are flags usually made of? If it's a material that can be burnt without causing harm to the environment, go ahead.

Flags are more than a piece of cloth, though. They represent something, in this case a country. So burning the US flag is an expression of dislike toward that country. In that case, your free speech argument might hold. I don't understand those nationalists who think "their" country's symbols are sacred...

By the way: I come from a country where flags only fly on special occasions, and then only in front of government buildings.

[Mikitivity]

YuunliJun 24 2005, 05:50 AM Here's what I wrote in another forum this morning:

Free speech? I don't see why destroying something could be called "free speech". There are other ways to express dislike.

Burning something is an act of damage to property. So you're not allowed to burn something that doesn't belong to you. And even then there can be restrictions, because burning certain materials causes pollution.

What are flags usually made of? If it's a material that can be burnt without causing harm to the environment, go ahead.

Flags are more than a piece of cloth, though. They represent something, in this case a country. So burning the US flag is an expression of dislike toward that country. In that case, your free speech argument might hold. I don't understand those nationalists who think "their" country's symbols are sacred...

By the way: I come from a country where flags only fly on special occasions, and then only in front of government buildings. [/quote]
What country is that?

BTW, I think stealing somebody else's anything and burning it is theft and destruction of property. I'm certainly not in support of that.

"The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins."
-Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

(Who is an extremely interesting American to read about ... as another of his quotes that I love: "Young man, the secret of my success is that at an early age I discovered that I was not God.")

[Yuunli]

Quote: What country is that?  [/quote]
This morning I waited for a bus in front of the city hall where a marriage was celebrated. Outside, I saw the following flag arrangement:

Three pieces of cloth and no national flag included.

[Mikitivity]

YuunliJun 24 2005, 10:06 AM Quote: What country is that?? [/quote]
This morning I waited for a bus in front of the city hall where a marriage was celebrated. Outside, I saw the following flag arrangement:

Three pieces of cloth and no national flag included. [/quote]
Good clues!

Ah, but I recognize two of those three flags!

The EU is a give away ... the second is one of the German states. Dang-it, it isn't Hesse, Saxony, or Bayern (sp?), but I think it is something in the south. Would the third flag be your city flag??? That is my guess. And I suspect if I dig around on-line for a bit, I can find the German state and then narrow it down to the city, because I can swear that I've seen that state flag before!


In the US we don't have city flags. But we do have state flags. I'll post the flags of the four US states I've lived in:






They are in time order too! Care to guess?

[Keeslandia]

Ah - but some cities do have flags. Some are even recognizable (at least locally) like my hometown of Chicago.

[Mikitivity]

KeeslandiaJun 24 2005, 04:52 PM Ah - but some cities do have flags. Some are even recognizable (at least locally) like my hometown of Chicago. [/quote]
That is the Chicago flag???

That is so cool!

(BTW, my dad's family is from that area ... well Hammond actually.)

Attachments:

• Chicago_Flag.jpg (1.63 KB)
  

[Yuunli]

Quote: The EU is a give away ... the second is one of the German states.  Dang-it, it isn't Hesse, Saxony, or Bayern (sp?), but I think it is something in the south.[/quote]
None of the three state flags you mentioned features the black-red-gold tricolor. The flag of Hesse is red and white (with the red-white lion on a blue shield), the flag of Saxony is white and green (with yellow-black stripes on the shield) and the flag of Bavaria consists of white and blue diamonds...

It's the state of Saarland in the south-west, at the border to France and Luxembourg.

Quote: Would the third flag be your city flag???[/quote]
Yes, it is. The city colors are blue and white, and the coat of arms represents the three cities that merged in 1909.

Quote: They are in time order too!  Care to guess?[/quote]
California, Texas and Wyoming are obvious. The other one doesn't look familiar to me, maybe something at the east coast (because of the ship)?

Quote: In the US we don't have city flags.[/quote]
Quote:  Ah - but some cities do have flags. Some are even recognizable (at least locally) like my hometown of Chicago.[/quote]
Doesn't NYC have one, too? I thought I had seen something Dutch-like when I was there.

[Mikitivity]

YuunliJun 25 2005, 01:05 AM It's the state of Saarland in the south-west, at the border to France and Luxembourg.

California, Texas and Wyoming are obvious. The other one doesn't look familiar to me, maybe something at the east coast (because of the ship)?
[/quote]
I should have guessed that since months ago you gave me your Lat/Long and it was there.

You got the easy ones, and you are correct in your assumption that the blue flag is on the east coast. It is one of the 13-original colonies, and home of one of the most famous Americans of all time. His face is on one of the US bills, but a big hint is you rarely see it, 'cause it is not small.

[quentoni]

I don't believe that burning flags should be illegal. I echo much of what has been stated here.

Flags do have a lot of symbolism that is concretely important to many people. Putting meaning in symbols is, not to overgeneralize, a universal human trait.

A healthy pride in one's nation or locale is not problematic, and it serves to foster a sense of community (community in the sense of social connections, rather than a geographical location).

Its hard to know where to draw the line when nationalism becomes problematic. I would venture that extreme nationalism is quite severe in the world right now, which has violent consequences.

The push to protect the flag is not a new issue, and I personally see the issue being brought up at this particular time as suspect. We are in a war, and people's emotions are brought to a heightened sense. I think that trying to legislate against burning the flag will only serve to alienate us from each other, as well as send a negative message to our neighbors.

The government is supposed to not infringe on our personal freedoms or liberties. Along those lines I ask this question:

What liberty do we have (as Americans for the sake of this question) do we have? Do we really have liberty, or are we only permitted to engage in activities that our government allows?

[Adam Island]

I don't think it should be illegal either. If I buy a piece of cloth I should be allowed to burn it if I like, regardless of what pattern is imprinted.

[Federation of Disjunction]

I guess I'm a bit late to the discussion but I'm very concerned at the prospect that we live in such a time as to be so threatened by flag-burning. Maybe there are professional protestors who've dropped out of contributing society and who attach no meaning to this last resort of protest, but guess what, that's part of living in a free society.

We are free to be patriotic or not. We are free to disagree with the policies and tactics of our government or not. And we are free to express disagreement through whatever non-violent means we choose.

Ultimately this is a tactic by the party in control to demonize anyone that disagrees since they hope that in the eyes of the masses anyone who is against this law is "un-American" - hardly. For any "R's" out there Im not attacking one party since there is plenty that the "D's" did to try to accomplish the same end when they had power.

Also, Mikitivity, your first flag is Pennsylvania. I lived most of my life there. What city were you from?

D

[Mikitivity]

Federation of DisjunctionJul 1 2005, 12:09 PM
Also, Mikitivity, your first flag is Pennsylvania. I lived most of my life there. What city were you from?

D [/quote]
=)

I was born in Pittsburgh! I lived there until I was 4 and a half, but would visit my grandparents every summer, and thus have many fond memories of PA and consider myself ~part~ Pennsylvanian.

[Federation of Disjunction]

I've spent much time in Pitt but grew up on the east side: Philly, Allentown, Shippensburg, Wilkes-Barre. All over since my dad is a clergyman. I still miss it living in the Midwest now.

Have you ever been back to Pitt for St Patrick's day? It is quite a blast! I was there on business and went out with a bunch of people from the hotel I was staying in. Everyone I met that night was totally cool and a lot of fun.

By the looks of the flags, you're a Clifornian now, right? What brought you out there? Are you in the northen or southern part?

[DataGenesis]

Here's 2 flags that should (easily) be able to tell you in which state of which country I live. The first is a national flag but isnot the nation's flag.

The last you will have to figure out

I decided not to only include my football team's flag as the second flag... which would have made it a bit more difficult

I have two more flags to help out if you get stuck (which you shouldn't).

[Yuunli]

Now that's a tough one. I checked several blue ensigns on FOTW, which gave me the impression the star arrangement on the first flag is typically Australian. So I browsed the state flags, and found the one with the piping shrike.
It took me a lot of googling to find the first flag, but I finally made it.

Quote: Today, the Eureka flag is often used as a symbol of rebellion against authority by people at the extreme left and the extreme right of the political spectrum in Australia. It has been used in marches by neo-Nazis on the one hand and draped over the coffins of deceased Communists on the other.[/quote]
:o Can you tell us something about that, DataGenesis?

Attachments:

• flag2.jpg (6.87 KB)
  

[DataGenesis]

Hi! I thought that flag would give you an interesting search! Hope you had fun, that was the intention anyway :-)

I presume you got the neo nazi stuff from http://www.ausflag.com.au/flags/eureka.html ?

Unfortunately I personally haven't ever seen it for that use, but what its basically used for today is a symbol of rebellion/free speech against percieved unfair majorities, traditionally now by the union movements.

I haven't seen it around lately, however it is likely to pop its head up again soon because the Liberal party (Large L "Liberal"= Conservative... go figure) has just gained a majority in the upper house of parliament.

In Australia's Westminster system, like the House of Lords in the UK, the upper house acts as a "check" on the government formed in the "lower" house. Now with a supreme majority and changes to industrial relations laws we are likely to see the flag brought out again as a show of defiance by oppressed groups against the government.

As you can see, because of the flag's nature, it is often used by repressed (or at least percieved repressed) groups. Thus, it has a large significance in our history as you can see on that link above, however also because of that nature it has the potential to be abused in the name of "repressed" groups that think using the flag in such a manner would draw attention to their cause.

However the flag because of that nature is also a symbol of free speech and part of the Australian "battler" spirit.

There was talk a while back about somehow incorporating it into the Australia flag if we converted to a republic ( which we didnt =( ) however the notion was rejected because of that controversial nature and the fact that the flag would, incorporated into a national emblem, then be representing the very thing that it was created to attempt to overcome (the majority).

Anyway... I don't know a lot about it. Ill read up a bit and tell you more if you would like.

[Sober Thought]

Oh, I've really been out of it; missing a flag AND civil rights discussion! So as a really late entry, here's my contribution:

I love flags, but if somebody wants to burn their own, get a permit for it (it is a fire hazard, and may cities ban the burning of leaves inside city limits) and go ahead if you must. However, as a tactic, it is a failure unless your goal is to inflame (pun intended) opinion AGAINST your position. It is, in effect, a negative position.

In the 1991 Gulf War, campus peaceniks at the university I occasionally attended ran anti-Coalition and/or anti-US rallies which desecrated but didnot burn flags. The pro-war contingent held a pro-UN rally, waving the UN flag as positive measure. Very effective I thought. Who would think that 12 years later we would yearn for a good war like Gulf I (actually Gulf II, but that's another issue).

In North America, many cities don't have flags. The N.A. Vexillogical Association did a survey a few months ago on the prettiest and ugliest of about 150 U.S. civic flags. Chicago rated highly (I believe in the top 3), and for good reason. Others rated very poorly, typically because they were way to busy and had lettering crammed into them.

The city where I was raised was recently forcibly amalgamated with its suburbs. One of the few good things to come from it was they dropped the old civic flag (which probably would have ranked in the bottom quartile of the U.S. city flags survey) for a very nice one. Check out my puppet "Hamilton Ontario."

So better late than never.

[DataGenesis]

Do you reckon my flag is too busy? *wonders*

[Sober Thought]

Well, my fondness for simple flags is well known because I'm a simple guy.

So on one level, the answer is yes. However, I'm a firm believer that each jurisdiction is free to adopt whatever flag it likes. I just note their choices may influence the effectiveness of the graphic representation of the jurisdiction. This is especially evident in flags below the level of sovereign nation.

For instance, most US state flags are not only too busy but too similar to one another (so much so that many states added the name of the state for clarity -- totally defeating the graphical as opposed to textual nature of a flag). Successful state flags focus on one feature and are quite striking and successful. Texas, New Mexico, South Carolina and Colorado readily come to mind. I think the Bear Flag would be improved by removing the lettering "California Republic."

And not to pick on US states; the Canadian provinces of New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island are too busy too.

However, if there were a poll of custom NationStates flags, I'm sure you'd be in the top quarter based on:

No lettering (counting the big cursive "D" as more graphical than textual).

Meaningful symbolism.

While you have shades of colour, you have few base colours. (Unlike, for instance, RL Uganda which is otherwise a rather striking flag.) Blue and white are excellent colours incombination.

Furthermore, NS flags have fewer limitations than RL flags. You don't have to sew them. They don't blow in the wind. They don't get faded in the sun. I try to make all my NS flags so that they could be created in RL if you wanted to.

So, be busy and be proud if that's what you would like to do.

For those following Adam Island's historical regression over the last couple of months, he has changed his flag during the epochs. I think his current flag is simpler, bolder and more effective than the flag he originally had when he joined. However, it still has his very distinctive pyramid, and reflects well on his country's principles and history. Well done, sir!