[Love and esterel]

Greetings,

One of your members, Groot gouda, has nicely invited us to post on the regional forum of your prestigious region, before submitting a new proposal.

With 2 others UN delegate, Jey and Richard2008, we will submit friday 2 propositions in a raw:
- a proposition about Worldwide media standards
- a repeal of #5 "DVD region removal"

We don't know if your region will agree with our aims, but we will welcome any helps to improve ideas, style and grammar.

Thanks a lot

PS: we don't think that the proposition "Worldwide media standards" will be a duplication violation of resolution #5. We are refering to the following jurisprudence about UNCoESB, dolphins and whales:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=...ghlight=uncoesbhttp://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=...ghlight=uncoesb


WORLDWIDE MEDIA STANDARDS
Category: Free Trade
Strength: Significant
Proposed by: Richard2008
________________________________________________
[[This proposition is followed by a repeal which will render null and void UN Resolution #5 ?DVD region removal? as it will become unnecessary]]

The United Nations,

-A- CONVINCED that the entertainment industry is a growing sector and is essential to the economic development of our Nations and the happiness of our people

-B- CONVINCED that the former ban of ?regional system? for DVD did not hurt any economy and that Universal standards increase the confidence of customers in this standard and then the likehood of its success

-C- REGRETTING the compatibility issues caused by multiple media formats around the world, and the further lack of coordination between media companies

-D- REGRETTING the problems consumers face when using incompatible media formats,


-1- URGES all Nations to encourages the growth of the entertainment industry

-2- BANS any "regional system" for commercial DRM?s (Digital Rights Management) and media formats, such as Blu-ray disc, High Density Digital Versatile Disc (HD DVD), Universal Media Disc (UMD), Super Audio CD (SACD), DualDisc, Enhanced Versatile Disc (EVD) and any previous or future storage medium,

-3- URGES STRONGLY all the different consortiums who develop each on their side a similar generation of new media support or DRM systems to have closed talks with each other, in order to find an agreement to present a universal format standard,

-4- URGES STRONGLY all nations to regulate DRMs, in order to assure compatibility for customers with most digital music or video portable players,

-5- URGES STRONGLY all Nations to work on and to adopt universal HDTV and digital radio standards.

-6- MANDATES developed nations who propose a media support or DRM system standard to regulate the cost of its patent licensing in order to be financially available to developing nations. Developing nations will be free to develop their own media support, DRM system or HDTV standard if they feel adopting a worldwide one can put their economy at risk,

Co-authored by Love and esterel
____________________________________________________
___________________________________________________
Repeal "DVD region removal"
Category: Repeal
Resolution: #5
Proposed by: Jey
_______________________________
[[A replacement proposition of "DVD region removal" has been submitted just before]]

Description: UN Resolution #5: ?DVD region removal? is repealed and shall be struck out and rendered null and void.

Argument:

-A- The resolution "DVD region removal?:
- is only about DVD
- is poorly written

-B- Other media supports exist or will arrive soon on the market and should be also free of a "regional system":
- Blu-ray disc, High Density DVD (HD DVD), Universal media disc (UMD), super Audio CD (SACD), DualDisc and any previous or future storage medium

-C- Music or videos digital formats are already available and Digital Rights Management (DRMs) should be regulated, in order to assure compatibility for customers with most digital music or video portable players

Co-authored by Love and esterel

___________________________________

[Groot Gouda]

I like any repeal of the DVD region resolution, but I think that this issue shouldn't be UN-regulated. It's ultimately the responsibility of the entertainment industry what they do with their media. If the people don't like it, they can sue the company or not buy their products. There should be consumer rights, but as for buying things from stores that's best left to the national level.

So, I would vote for your repeal (leave out C though, it's not usefull or even counterproductive to suggest what the legislation should be in a repeal, see the Dolphin repeal), but I think you'd better leave out the replacement resolution and put your energy in something more suitable to do on UN level. There's no specific advantage to regulate that for 30.000 countries.

[Love and esterel]

thanks a lot for your answer
you right we will think about deleting -C- in the repeal, you made a good point

But the new resolution is an important part of our plan, sorry we will submit it.
We think consumer rights are something important (we approved also the proposal "Labeling Standards) and also that encouraging "Worldwide media standards" will be useful for our high-tech economic sector

[Groot Gouda]

Love and esterelSep 14 2005, 09:07 PM But the new resolution is an important part of our plan, sorry we will submit it.
We think consumer rights are something important (we approved also the proposal "Labeling Standards) and also that encouraging "Worldwide media standards" will be useful for our high-tech economic sector [/quote]
But labelling is something different altogether. That's because you want to know what your food consists of, wherever it's made.

The worldwide media standard is in the wrong category for a start. It's not about free trade - it talks about restriction and regulation. That's not free trade. Free trade means you give companies freedom to do whatever they want. If they choose to protect their products with DRM, so be it. Why should a government care about that? People can choose not to buy DRM'd products. There's no harm in not having the latest (insert artist) CD. But there could be harm in eating wrongly labelled food. There might be harm for the company selling DRM'd CD's or whatever, but that's how business works. You don't need to tell them how to operate their business. That only gets in the way of economic development.

So, please seriously reconsider that resolution and whether the UN should dictate the marketing plans of entertainment companies. The UN isn't there for every idea you have. Restrict your resolutions to what really matters on an international level. Promoting the entertainment business is not a government's job. Not national, certainly not international. Promoting the entertainment business is a job for the entertainment business.

But whatever you do, it most certainly isn't "free trade".

[Love and esterel]

thanks,
i understand your point of view, but for me, economy and the entertainment industry really matter, entertainment keep growing and growing and is now, in many nations, a major economic sector

About "free trade", i understand also what you mean, but the proposition allow free trade for "content" or free trade for "digital format"

"regional systems" are a restriction to free trade, as if i visit Groot Gouda, i may be able to buy "content" but not able to use it back home, and so i will not be incitatd to buy "content". Also "regional systems" restrict importation, exportations and international trade.

if there is 30 000 or 100 or even 10 "regional systems" in the world
=> the probability for me to be able to buy one day the best movies from Groot Gouda = 0%
=> i will pirate them on the internet and pay: 0

so, i really think it's not about regulation alone but also about free trade.
Furthrmore, most of the world greatest economist know that "regulation" is an essential part of free trade, this is a fondamental economic basis.

[Groot Gouda]

Nonono. Free trade means trade without regulations. Your resolution proposes restrictions on what companies are allowed to produce, that is not free trade. It doesn't matter what you think "free trade" is, but what Free Trade actually is in general terms. Something like a regional system doesn't restrict trade; it merely restricts where you can use a bought product. But those products can still be available everywhere the company wants.

Don't worry about not being able to watch the best movies from Groot Gouda: with a regional system, you will be able to buy those movies in your own region, should such a system come into existence. Of course, in our Real Life situation, many commercial movies are offered region-free, or players are offered region-free. You seem to think that the possibility of a regional system means that everything will be using such a system, which is wrong of course.

Now, I'm inclined to the left pretty much, especially on social issues, but I still think that a government shouldn't interfere with businesses too much, except where basic goods such as food, and health and safety are concerned. It is not a government's job to increase the pay of entertainment companies CEOs. Try to understand this: a company has but one goal: make as much profit as possible. Everything they do is aimed at that. In your attempt to "help" them (as if they need any help, hah!), you are actually restricting them in reaching their goal.

If you really want to make a resolution on this as free trade, you should legislate that governments shouldn't interfere with entertainment companies. That is free trade, and good for the economy as well.

[Love and esterel]

i'm sorry, i don't know if you have study "economy", but obviously, trade cannot be free without being regulated.

You take the side of compagnies who created "media format", but this is only a small part of this economy. When you buy a UMD or a DVD, the added value of the support is a very small comparatively to the value added of the "content" or the distribution

So this poposition is about free trade for content.

the only restrictions are about
-commercial system restricted to an nation, area or region
-system with a patent licensing cost more than reasonable


you know it's exactly as:
"liberty stop where someone else liberty begin"

and last, i'm pretty sure that if someone submit a well-written resolution banning DRM it will pass at the NSUN, so if you never like "regulation" it's up to you

[Love and esterel]

Groot GoudaSep 15 2005, 12:07 PM You seem to think that the possibility of a regional system means that everything will be using such a system, which is wrong of course. [/quote]
i must agee with you on this point

but in reality, everytime systems are implemented, they are widely used
the actual problem with DRM (i never intended to ban DRM) is a good illustration

[Love and esterel]

here is our updated draft, we will submit next week (the day is not fixed yet), and we will always appreciate critics or improvments suggestions


Media and DRM Act

The United Nations,

-A- NOTING that the entertainment industry is a growing sector and is essential to the economic development of our Nations and the happiness of our people

-B- DEFINES a ?regional system? as any method to prohibit the transmitting or viewing of media from one region or nation in another region or nation,

-C- CONVINCED that the Universal standards are likely to increase the confidence of customers in the standards and then the likelihood of their success

-D- REGRETTING the compatibility issues caused by multiple media formats around the world, and the further lack of coordination between media companies

-E- REGRETTING the problems consumers face when using incompatible media formats, and when attempting to transport media from other cultures,

-F- REGRETTING that the current restrictions on media use increase privacy and hurt content and distribution industries,


-1- URGES all Nations to encourage the growth of the entertainment industry"

-2- BANS any "regional system" for commercial DRM?s (Digital Rights Management) and media formats, such as Blu-ray disc, High Density Digital Versatile Disc (HD DVD), Universal Media Disc (UMD), Super Audio CD (SACD), DualDisc, Enhanced Versatile Disc (EVD) and any previous or future storage medium,

-3- URGES STRONGLY all nations to regulate DRMs and Media duplication protections, in order to assure compatibility for customers with most media players,

-4- MANDATES developed nations where companies propose a commercial media support or DRM system standard to regulate the cost of its patent licensing in order to be financially reasonable and available to developing nations

[Ecopoeia]

Love and esterelSep 15 2005, 06:17 PM i'm sorry, i don't know if you have study "economy", but obviously, trade cannot be free without being regulated. [/quote]
Er, no. Spectacularly misguided and inaccurate, I'm afraid. By definition: free = unregulated, in terms of trade.

I think you already know my opinions on the worthiness of UN legislation on entertainment.

[Groot Gouda]

Love and esterelSep 16 2005, 10:25 AM -1- URGES all Nations to encourage the growth of the entertainment industry"

-2- BANS any "regional system" for commercial DRM?s (Digital Rights Management) and media formats, such as Blu-ray disc, High Density Digital Versatile Disc (HD DVD), Universal Media Disc (UMD), Super Audio CD (SACD), DualDisc, Enhanced Versatile Disc (EVD) and any previous or future storage medium,

-3- URGES STRONGLY all nations to regulate DRMs and Media duplication protections, in order to assure compatibility for customers with most media players,

-4- MANDATES developed nations where companies propose a commercial media support or DRM system standard to regulate the cost of its patent licensing in order to be financially reasonable and available to developing nations [/quote]
It's still not free trade, and there is no justification at all why the UN should even contemplate spending its precious time on this resolution, instead of leaving this either to national governments or to businesses.

[Lawtonia]

I agree with Love and esterel that region encoding on media does encourage piracy and therefore does not make economic sense.

In real life I am located in region 4. Our region does not produce the amount of films and television that regions 1 and two make. This results in our prices being higher because we have to import a lot of our media and have it encoded for our regions use. An average DVD new release would cost approx $25-$30US, whereas pirated versions from Asia (although the quality is sometimes questionable), cost only $5US or for the cost of a blank DVD I can download the film illegally.

A Univeral system is best - it allows pricing parity throughout the world and will reduce piracy, therefore saving governments more money in law enforcement, saving consumers money on media and allowing media companies to recieve profits that would otherwise be lost to piracy.

[Domnonia]

By asking all media providers to adopt a standard format, are we not limiting competition, and in turn giving technological advancement within the industry a bad case of asphyxiation?

[Lawtonia]

I don't think a standard format is the issue its about making media universally available.

The compact disc and the dvd are examples of when consortia of media manfacturers get together and develop a product - it becomes universal.

On the other hand if you have a media format which is jealously guarded by its manufacturer it is not as successful. One example is the Sony mini-disc. It only became a worldwide media format because of Sony's market penetration, it is however expensive and not regarded as a universal media format.

If Phillips retained as much control of the CD that Sony has of the MiniDisc we may still be using cassette tapes.

[Groot Gouda]

LawtoniaSep 17 2005, 05:27 AM I agree with Love and esterel that region encoding on media does encourage piracy and therefore does not make economic sense. [/quote]
If a company wants to make less profit, that's their decision, not a government's.

A company makes a product, and can sell it on whatever condition they want. A consumer can decide whether the price and the conditions are right. If they're not, the good or service isn't sold. Some judicial protection is necessary, such as putting into law that a consumer has the right to know what is sold, and a period in which a consumer can change their mind about impulse purchases and return them.

It's pointless to start forcing universal standards on luxury goods. Sony's MiniDisc versus Philips' CD is a good example, as mentioned in this discussion. But please, let companies work that out for themselves. By regulating that as government you're only creating bureaucracy, prices go up and economy goes down.

[Lawtonia]

Groot GoudaSep 17 2005, 11:41 PM If a company wants to make less profit, that's their decision, not a government's.

[/quote]
Region encoding allows the companies to determine what content is available in a particular region. IRL being in region 4 means that only about 80% of what is produced in regions 1&2 is available here because it is decided by media distrbuters what is profitable in a particular region.

I feel that this is just a form of economic censorship, it shouldn't be up to companies to decide what and what is not available for us to purchase - if it exists we should have that right to purchase it and be able to view it no matter where we are in the world. Thank goodness for multi-region dvd players :wave:

Personally I think its sneaky that there happens to be ten dvd regions (0-9) and the consortia of companies that orginally developed the dvd had 10 members.

Coincidence?

[Groot Gouda]

LawtoniaSep 18 2005, 05:23 AM Region encoding allows the companies to determine what content is available in a particular region. IRL being in region 4 means that only about 80% of what is produced in regions 1&2 is available here because it is decided by media distrbuters what is profitable in a particular region.

I feel that this is just a form of economic censorship, it shouldn't be up to companies to decide what and what is not available for us to purchase - if it exists we should have that right to purchase it and be able to view it no matter where we are in the world. Thank goodness for multi-region dvd players [/quote]
First of all, living in a small region (IRL and in NS) means economic censorship. Whether there's a regional system or not, you'll always pay a higher price because it's less profitable to sell goods in your region.

Anyway, it's not illegal to own a multi-region DVD player, or one from another region. If Love and Esterel would be open to a complete rewrite of their (currently flawed) proposal, it could include something about governments not having to support media protection (allowing region-free DVD players, not punishing people who try to break or work around encryption). That way, you leave companies free to do what they want (free trade), but as a government you stay out of it.

That might even get my support, if worded well (it mustn't be too anti-business).

But it's not your right to be able to buy anything that is sold. A company should always be able to refuse to sell you something without a valid reason. The presence of something doesn't mean you should be able to buy it. Just as I, in RL, currently don't have the right to buy a million-euro villa, because I don't have the money.

[Lawtonia]

The reason why media companies do not prosecute people who make mod chips is because Sony lost a court case here in australia. Sony had a type of region encoding on all of its PSX games and mod chips were made here so people could use the games they bought cheaper overseas and in duty-free. Sony took them to court and lost.

You are in region 2 which happens to have several hundred million more english speakers than in region 4 where I am from. Australia may look big on a map but there are only 19million people here. Your choice in media content is a lot larger than we get in region 4. Because of region encoding we miss out on a lot of US independent films as well as a large chunk of wonderful european cinema. Region encoding is anti-competitive behaviour and should be discouraged.

While I understand your concerns about government over-regulation in business, governments are the only entities that can bring about these changes - corporations are not going to suddenly develop a social conscience. e.g. McDonalds only started having "lighter" options on their menu because they were facing lawsuits from thousands of obese customers. (McDonalds is banned in Lawtonia). They didn't do it for their customers, they did it for their bottom line. This is why governments need to provide guidelines for businesses operating in their nation.

Lawtonia is pro-Free Trade and believes that region encoding on any media format to be anti-competitive and supports any action to remove barriers to the free flow of information.

[Groot Gouda]

LawtoniaSep 18 2005, 03:27 PM You are in region 2 which happens to have several hundred million more english speakers than in region 4 where I am from. Australia may look big on a map but there are only 19million people here. Your choice in media content is a lot larger than we get in region 4. Because of region encoding we miss out on a lot of US independent films as well as a large chunk of wonderful european cinema. Region encoding is anti-competitive behaviour and should be discouraged. [/quote]
Region encoding isn't anti-competetive at all. In fact, I'd suggest the opposite. A company that sells region-free DVDs will have less costs and more potential customers. No problems with competition there. And the company that starts to make region-free players will sell a lot of them by the sound of it.

I know there aren't a lot of people in Australia. And that means that it will always have problems getting certain products, because the market is small and you'll need more transportation. It'll never be fair. If you live in Broken Hill, NSW, that means that goods are likely to be more expensive or unavailable because they have to be brought all the way there for few people, while in Sydney you can get pretty much anything you want. Though probably expensive too, but that's Sydney. Melbourne'll be cheaper if things haven't changed too much since I was there.

That's simply how it works. Whether there's a regional system or not; media companies will try to think of new ways to protect against copying, at the expense of the customer. All you can do is not buy their products. They'll go broke eventually. The only solution for them is to lower prices, which means they'll have to cut back on merchandising and outrageous salaries. That's the free market. These days, what people want to pay for entertainment products is much less than 10 or 20 years ago, because there is more choice. Pirating isn't as much an issue as entertainment companies suggest, it's mainly the economy going bad, and more and more choice with CD, DVD, games, internet, and everything else. You can only spend your (curreny unit here) once.