[Embolalia]

Domonia did an amazing job with our map. But as best I can tell, he hasn't even posted in the thread, let alone updated the map, in at least two years.

Of about 49 nations on the map, from about 42 players, Malabra, Bears Armed, Old Ceorana, Baranxtu, Jagera, and Embolalia are still in the region. I'm sure there are more that have requested spots that just haven't gotten them yet.

So I'm wondering what we should do about the map. The way I see it, we have a few options:

Option 1:
Do nothing. We wait for Dom to come back, and hope he stays to edit the map. The downside is, that may never happen. And in the meantime, we don't get any changes to the map.

Option 2:
Someone takes over maintaining Dom's map. This has the upside of keeping the wonderful map Dom made us, and not making anyone move.
The downside is, we don't have source files. I doubt Dom was editing right into the PDF; he probably has (or had) an svg or Illustrator file that he was working with. I've tried editing the PDF directly, and it's very difficult. It's slow, there are no layers, and I don't know his methods and conventions for doing it. I'm willing to give this another go, but it's really just a stop-gap until Dom comes back. Another point, we need to decide which, if any, of the old nations to remove. A lot of those nations haven't been active in my memory. I know we like to keep spots available in case a nation comes back, but right now the map is crowded with barely any active nations.

Option 3:
We appoint a new cartographer, and make a new map. I have one from a little while back, which is inspired by, but quite different from, our current one. It, too, is scalable, but slightly smaller. I am willing to take on the duty of cartographer, and I would keep my source files (Inkscape SVG) updated and uploaded in case I CTE'd. Downside, everyone (All 6 of us) would have to move, and old spots would not be available to nations if they return.


Anyone have preferences, or another idea?

[Algoriac]

I say option 3. And there should be a waiting period for people to be allowed onto the map. That way you dont have region hoppers taking up space.

[Embolalia]

Hmm. We wouldn't want to discourage new members from being active, though. After all, trying to find a place on the map was one of the first things you did here. Perhaps a minimum amount of time that you must spend here before you qualify for having your parcel kept for you if you leave?

[Algoriac]

exactly...which will actually be incentive for members to be active

[Jade Tigers]

I could go for 3, though I'd like to see an example of what your end product would look like first. Nothing personal, I just like to know what to expect. That said, I do think that we should leave any of the founders and active people as close as possible to how they are now unless we recieve some word to the contrary.

[Embolalia]

I've sent off TGs to the other nations that are still around and have claims. If they don't care either way, I'll make it completely from scratch. Otherwise, I'll try to fit them in.

[Bears Armed]

Given the number of maps about Bears Armed that I've produced, as far as I'm concerned it should be either option #2 or a version of option #3 that leaves me with basically the same territories and to some extent the same neighbours. (Roumberre and Old Ceorana are both mine too, by the way, and there are "historical" reasons why they have to be where they are...)

EDIT: Addition _

Okay, I can definitely see that we need a map that can (and will) be updated more easily ? and, hopefully, one that will be stored in a way that permits more than one member of the region to access it in order to make those changes ? and that clearing some of the long-absent nations out to create more room for [relative] newcomers is also desirable.

Having said that, the amount of work that I?ve put into drawing my own maps for the details of Bears Armed means that I really don?t want to be forced into making major changes: So _

For the ?Mainland? section: the shape of this area should remain as unchanged as possible, as should the rivers running into it (and also most of those that currently run along its western borders?), and although my maps might not have followed Dom?s version ?perfectly? as far as the shapes & heights of the various mountain ranges & other highlands were concerned I?d definitely prefer it if there weren?t any major changes to the distribution of these around the borders. In order to avoid having to make major changes to climate (& thus to ecosystems) I?d also like to retain roughly the current latitude.
Possible changes: I wouldn?t object if a change in the map?s scale increased this part of the country?s dimensions by say 10-25%, although I could live without any such expansion okay. It would help my plans if the ?Marches? could be expanded a bit in the north-west (Could the river that forms my border with Keeslandia in that direction be curved ?outwards?, away from ?Bears Armed? proper, for the part of its current course that starts about halfway from the northern end of Mikitivity to the point where it joins a major west-flowing river [that flows along the northern edge of the ?Long March?] and the combined waters turn northwards through Keeslandia?) and also if north-south ?thickness? of the ?Long March? (along the country?s northern border) could be increased a bit, too. In fact, if the northern sea could be extended southwards across part of the land that?s currently marked as western Keeslandia and the Bears could be given a coastline there that would be rather nice... but none of those possible changes are ones that I'd consider "essential"...
The ?Wilderlands Protectorate? along the country?s southern & eastern borders should also remain basically unchanged, unless you want to widen it a bit on one or both of those sides, and there should still be a strip of ?Unknown Lands? (that nobody can get into) along its eastern edge as well.

My own maps aren?t quite as good a match for Dom?s version as far as the ?Northlands? are concerned, however, because ? with his consent to the general idea ? I added an extra peninsula and a LOT of islands? and then, while he was absent, I pencilled in an Arctic continent (not actually inside the nation, but with its coasts known of by us?) too. I haven?t created as many maps for that part of the country as I have for the ?Mainland?, so I?m less dogmatic about keeping its outline unchanged & dimensions undiminished ? especially if the Mainland gains the coastline of its own that I mentioned as a possibility above -- but I?d want the right to reject any MAJOR changes that the new Cartographer might think of making to its details & nearer surroundings.


Deadwood?
Although obviously we do have to make room for newcomers I?d be reluctant to see all of the region?s oldest-established nations swept completely off of the map in the current absence of their players: People do sometimes return after considerable intervals, after all, and it would be unfortunate if having lost their original place on the map led them to feel ?unwanted? here & to move into other regions instead when they might otherwise have become active in the IDU once again. At the very least, I think that the region?s five original nations should each retain some territories ? even if they?re currently ?dormant? ? and that any nations whose players were really active in fairly recent times should also do so just in case.

Neighbours
As far as the nations actually bordering Bears Armed and its attached territories are concerned, Mikitivity is written into the Bears? history & some bits of roleplay too deeply for me to see their removal from the map as viable: At the very least, they should retain lands equivalent to the eastern half of their current territories? and if you do insist on removing them from the map then I?ll probably create an appropriate puppet to take their place anyway?
Keeslandia, I?ve already discussed when talking about the Bears? ?Mainlands?. Its player dropped out relatively soon after I originally created the Bears & got involved in this region, and I didn?t interact with him or his nation as far as I can recall, so major changes there wouldn?t really bother me? but
1/. The Bears do have a Keeslander community living in various districts of the Marches & northern ?Mainland?, as refugees from the Keeslandian collapse into utter anarchy.
2/. The historical existence of Keeslandia is written into the backgrounds of various other nations that could potentially [hopefully!] get revived & return to us?
and so
I think that at least a diminished Keeslandia should remain, even if it lacks any ?national? government, on the new map.

I?m not too bothered by the question of what nations exist to the east of the ?Unknown Lands? (where Antrium & South Antrium, and Fonzoland, were), but I would appreciate (for climatic reasons) it if the ocean wasn?t more than about twice as far from the Bears in that direction.

Malabra is also written into the Bears? history, but if it CTEs or gets moved then it could be replaced by another nation easily enough as long as their players would agree to accept certain ?established? facts (1/ rugged uplands occupied by lower-tech tribes, exist along their border with our ?Wilderlands Protectorate?; 2/ Tigers & various other species whose ranges currently extend into that edge of the Bears? lands, are present?)


(I?m running out of time that I can spend online this evening, so will have to complete this post [i]tomorrow instead?)

:Bear:

[Jade Tigers]

On that note, we have been saying that Sidh Ohn occupies the area directly south of Bears Armed. However, that has presented several issues, both with existing regional history and with my own "mythology" of the Ohn, none of which have been resolved satisfactorily to my mind.

However, the position was chosen from the original map, which did not include the ice coast to the north of Bears Armed. If it had, I would have chosen it, as it makes alot more sense overall. If Sidh Ohn could be placed there, it would have to be some sort of landmass attached to a more northern ice shelf, rather like Greenland in RL. As far as geography goes, it should have a single accessible if rocky and treacherous coast/fiord/bay area (the Muircine Coast) just to its south-west, high steppes leading to shear cliffs on the western boarder, a shear mountain range leading to more inaccesible cliffs on the eastern boarder, and low steppes leading into the glacial ice fields in the north. The interior should basically be filled with a taiga made up of heavy forests and low jagged mountains dominated by a single massive mountain peak in the rough center of the nation that towers over all and upon which the capital of Sleibh Cathaird is built.

[Embolalia]

OOPS! I don't know how I ended up "editing" Embolalia's post instead of just quoting it: Must be a 'mod' function that somehow activated without my norticing it... Sorry!
(B.A.)



Bears Armed:
I'd like to start by asking you to collect all your maps in one post for me, so that it'll be easier for me to figure them out and include them.[/quote]

I currently have all of my maps ? hwell, those of them that are completed, anyway ? stored at http://www.box.net . There used to be a way of setting up folders that had been created there so that other people could view and even download copies of their contents without having to have an account at that site themselves, but when I tried to re-set that function after adding & updating a lot of maps earlier this summer it seemed to be no longer possible with a free account (which is all that I have there): However setting up a free account of your own at that site is easy enough? In fact, I see that you have already done so...
Other members of this region, and any other friendly nations who might happen to be reading this post, are also invited to peruse those maps.

'Mainland' _ currently the ?title page?, 2 pages of index, 15 maps, & 3 additional pages of 'keys' for some of those maps.

'NorthLands', i.e. [nation]The Ursine Northlands[/nation] _ currently 7 maps.

?OutLands? _ currently 3 maps.


Quote: What would be best would be a single image showing all the areas and neighbors you want.[/quote]
Working on this.

Quote: Dom isn't the cartographer anymore. I know it's harsh to say that so bluntly, but it's been two years since he's even posted in the thread, let alone updated it. I think your own extensive development of geography simply shows that having an idea of your nation's geography and neighbors is a pretty basic part of developing it. We need a map, and we need to have it updated regularly.[/quote]
Agreed.

Quote: What I'm basically getting at here is that, while I'm willing to try to keep your geography, I don't think it's reasonable to be copying over half the old map, complete with nations that haven't been around in ages, and most likely aren't coming back.[/quote]
That's fair enough... but some of the Bears' past interactions with Mikitivity weren't just in our own notes, or even in this region's forum, they were in the main 'NS' forum too... and there are some details along our western border, such as our only international railway link for one important example, that only work properly if Mikitivity or an equivalent nation is there. (Also, various bits of history that we agreed on between us add serious depth to parts of the Bears' history.) Oh, and although Bears Armed is still in 2010 AD for regional (& WA) matters it has already reached 2041 AD as far as international football (such as the NS World Cup) is concerned and the fact that the best routes into our 'Mainland' to play/watch matches there are -- by air &/or rail -- through Mikitivity has therefore been explicitly stated in associated RP posts that will have been set that far ahead of the present day...
I've got Mik's email address, so I'll send him a hint about it possibly being a case of "now or never" for restoring his nation in anything like its currently-mapped location...

oh, and considering that [nation]Enn[/nation] returned to us after a gap of around two years -- even though he has subsequently moved elsewhere since then -- just how quickly are you suggesting we "should" delete nations that CTE?

:Bear:

[Jade Tigers]

EmbolaliaJul 28 2010, 12:49 AM Sidh Ohn, I'll see what I can do. [/quote]
Thanks! i should note that the basic topography is a combination of the Carpathian Mountains with Siberia, and a coastline reminiscent of the worst nightmares of Norway :lol:

[Algoriac]

I really don't have any area so far...Would really like a nice coastal region, maybe a penninsula or an island as well as coastal mainland.

[Embolalia]

Bears: Am I correct in saying that you basically have two spots, the one near Malabra and the one near (and including) Old Ceorana?

Also, I've worked up this very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very rough sketch of the general idea of what I'm thinking. It should attatch to the post.

1) Northern Bears area. Jagera, Old Ceorana change very little. Extend that landmass east for continuity.
2)Mikitivity remains similar, with either a long bay or sea on the number.
3)Rest of Bears Armed/Wilderlands/Malabra remains very similar.
4)Kedalfax will border all or part of Wilderlands and Malabra. Embolalia on most of those islands.

This is all very brief, very rough, and very pre-alpha. I had to make this quick because I don't want to miss Psych.

EDIT: It didn't attach.
EDIT: Turns out Psych is at 10 anyway.
EDIT again: Does anyone know how to turn off the automatic linking of terms like IDU? Especially that one, it has a tendency to break links.

EDIT one last time:
Here is my general idea for the whole region. Baranxtu is in a spot at the bottom, much like now. I also touched up the area I posted before a bit. Again, this is still very early and rough. What do you think?

[Jade Tigers]

Just curious where Sidh Ohn would be in that? I take it that the proposed landmass north of Bears Armed is not possible?

Attachments:

• pre_alpha.jpg (48.54 KB)
  

[Embolalia]

Ah, right. I forgot to include that. I'll try to include something in the next revision.

[Algoriac]

And myself please...preferably northern and coastal

[Embolalia]

With both you and Sidh Ohn, I'm more seeing what comes out as I go along, keeping your ideas in mind as I draw. That said, i do have a few areas I think will work nicely for you.

[Jagera]

I think I can help with this... about 2 years ago, Dom gave me access to the source files, as I was looking to help out when he was going away at that time. I don't have the time/ambition to do these right now, but the source is all there for anyone who does want to use them. In order to manipulate them as they exist, you'll probably need Adobe Illustrator.

If there is anyone out there who can make use of these, let me know and I'll see if I can get you access. If no one else has the ability to use these, but does want to ensure they are used, I could potentially chip in for a bit, though I can't promise anything would be done quickly.

Here's an example of the full file: http://www.box.net/shared/fqplfsbso0

[Embolalia]

I've been using Inkscape, which I think can open Illustrator files. If I could access those, it would probably be easier to do that than to re-do the whole thing from scratch (though, I've kind of grown fond of my work in progress. I'll leave it up to you all to decide).

Really, it would be best if we could let everyone access the files (at least download-only) so that if/when the cartographer disappears, it doesn't mean everyone has to wait.

[Algoriac]

Thank you Embolalia!

[Embolalia]

So I'm stuck at the office doing a server upgrade. It's mostly waiting, and I've been told not to worry about getting anything else done (anything I would know how to do uses the server anyway). Since making the map is fun and time-consuming, I'm doing it. (I also managed to send 113 TGs for my Clean Water Act in the WA) If we end up being able to get the source files, this might end up being wasted time. But it would have been anyway. So this is what I have so far:
http://yfrog.com/3oprealphap
Keeslandia, Mikitivity, and Wilderlands Protectorate are in brown, so that I can easily see which are the Bears Armed areas.

EDIT: This is what I got done today. If we end up going with this, I was thinking Sidh Ohn to the east of Bears Armed (I added in some islands and such from your maps) and Arnholdica to my north.
http://yfrog.com/0nprealphap

[Bears Armed]

(will post here on Monday)

[Algoriac]

Map looks good

[Algoriac]

May I request the large island at the northeastern most part of the map?

[Embolalia]

I don't want to officially put in places for new nations just yet; I'd rather wait to see if Jagera can get us access to those source files and, if he can, see whether the region wants to go ahead with the new map.

That being said, this is my probably final version, not counting new borders. I'll give it a little bit to see if Jagera can get access to those files and see what the region thinks before I add anybody new in.

[Embolalia]

Malabra just CTE'd. I'm leaving that on the map for Bears. I'm thinking I'll wait until Monday. If I don't hear back from Jagera that he's found Dom's source files, I'm going to add in Arnholdica (Let me know which if any surrounding islands you want) and Sidh Ohn, and consider mine the official map. At that time, I will also post my SVG source file, in case I CTE.